Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

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Marchi
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a Marchi » To Avg 27, 2024 12:52

nac napisal/-a:
Marchi napisal/-a:Kaj naredi downburst iz nič kaj orkanskega neba. Tudi s 500 tonsko jahto v primeru SY Bayesian. Potem dodaš odprta vrata in dvignjeno kobilico ...
https://youtu.be/C9d0X1SxfLg?t=176

…500 tonsko????

Baje ima 500 ton in glede na upor 72 m jambora in vsega kar spada zraven, jo je očitno položilo na bok in je vdrla voda. Vsaj taka so pričanja do sedaj.

"Bayesian measures 56.00 metres in length, with a max draft of 9.73 metres and a beam of 11.51 metres. She has a gross tonnage of 473 tonnes"
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MareC
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a MareC » To Avg 27, 2024 13:26

Marchi napisal/-a:
nac napisal/-a:
Marchi napisal/-a:Kaj naredi downburst iz nič kaj orkanskega neba. Tudi s 500 tonsko jahto v primeru SY Bayesian. Potem dodaš odprta vrata in dvignjeno kobilico ...
https://youtu.be/C9d0X1SxfLg?t=176

…500 tonsko????

Baje ima 500 ton in glede na upor 72 m jambora in vsega kar spada zraven, jo je očitno položilo na bok in je vdrla voda. Vsaj taka so pričanja do sedaj.

"Bayesian measures 56.00 metres in length, with a max draft of 9.73 metres and a beam of 11.51 metres. She has a gross tonnage of 473 tonnes"

zadnja info je da so imeli samo priprta zadnja vrata za servisni vhod za skuterje in byboat, in je tam vdrla velika količina vode
SR 290
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a SR 290 » To Avg 27, 2024 14:06

Kot je videti so te tavelike jahte en sam varnostni šmorn.
Znanka, ki je bila šef na 30 m Pershingu mi je potarnala, da so bile poti v glavnem zreducirane med črpalkami in servisnimi točkami, pa se jim je vseeno skoraj potopil in so ga komaj rešili na poti med Monte Carlom in Mallorco. In zakaj? Zato, ker je korozija odpihnila spoj med ventilom in vsesnim košem za wc školjke in je bilo v plovilu že okrog 1 m vode preden so zasilno zatesnili luknjo. popravilo je bilo menda milijonske vrednosti in barka je stala leto dni preden so zamenjali vse napeljave in kompletno elektro opremo.

Tule pa en enih palubnih vrat ne zapre do konca in gredo rakom žvižgat. Klinc pa take barke pri katerih moraš doktorirat preden jo lahko varno uporabljaš.
Darh
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a Darh » To Avg 27, 2024 14:08

SR, manj je vec ni rek brezveze.
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a 1stofficer » To Avg 27, 2024 14:55

Pri custom made barkah drugace skoraj bit ne more. Avto npr preden gre v serijo se razvija in testira leta. OK, barka je bistveno drazja kar vkljucuje tudi testiranje, je pa veliko stvari, ki so najbrz ne dovolj nepreizkusene, svoje naredijo tudi galvanika in slano morje, pa se kaj.

Tako da poznam zgode bark za par MIO, pa je skoz nekaj narobe. To je qrac, ker na taki najbrz se nimas posadke. Na teh ta zaresnih pa se lastnik pride izlezavat z zeno, druzbo ali ljubico in ga gladko BK za ventile, plin, gorivo in vse ostalo. Za to ima posadko.

So pa zacele krozit razne teorije zarote, ampak o tem razpravljat brez dokazov, pricevanj in porocil je brezveze
sandokan
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a sandokan » Sr Avg 28, 2024 07:33

Marchi napisal/-a:"Bayesian measures 56.00 metres in length, with a max draft of 9.73 metres and a beam of 11.51 metres. She has a gross tonnage of 473 tonnes"


Tako pravi wikipedia:
Gross tonnage (GT, G.T. or gt) is a nonlinear measure of a ship's overall internal volume
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Marchi
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a Marchi » Sr Avg 28, 2024 09:15

sandokan napisal/-a:
Marchi napisal/-a:"Bayesian measures 56.00 metres in length, with a max draft of 9.73 metres and a beam of 11.51 metres. She has a gross tonnage of 473 tonnes"
Tako pravi wikipedia:
Gross tonnage (GT, G.T. or gt) is a nonlinear measure of a ship's overall internal volume

Kaj pa vem!? Izpodrivnost.
Konverter da ven:
473 gt = 480590 kg

Displacement full load
543.4 gt = 552119.89 kg

Piše, da ima npr. veeelike tanke, kar je tudi neka teža.
Fuel capacity 49,700 lt
Fresh water 10,900 lt
JonTa
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a JonTa » Sr Avg 28, 2024 09:36

Marchi napisal/-a:Kaj naredi downburst iz nič kaj orkanskega neba. Tudi s 500 tonsko jahto v primeru SY Bayesian. Potem dodaš odprta vrata in dvignjeno kobilico ...
https://youtu.be/C9d0X1SxfLg?t=176


Tole izgleda kot tornado/pijavica, je pa v tem videu spodaj orkanski downburst, ki vrže katmaran in položi 45m jadrnico na bok, katera se pa za razliko od baysesian postavi nazaj;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mofa0QNFi8
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a Marchi » Sr Avg 28, 2024 10:42

JonTa napisal/-a:
Marchi napisal/-a:Kaj naredi downburst iz nič kaj orkanskega neba. Tudi s 500 tonsko jahto v primeru SY Bayesian. Potem dodaš odprta vrata in dvignjeno kobilico ...
https://youtu.be/C9d0X1SxfLg?t=176


Tole izgleda kot tornado/pijavica, je pa v tem videu spodaj orkanski downburst, ki vrže katmaran in položi 45m jadrnico na bok, katera se pa za razliko od baysesian postavi nazaj;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mofa0QNFi8

Super video, ki prikaže moč vetra. Vse se zgodi v trenutku in ja, jadrnice se postavijo nazaj, razen kadar je v igri "presenečenje in šlamparija". Vsem nam v opomnik, da ko gre zares, je treba izvesti vse postopke priprave na neurje in pošlihtat posadko. Vedno sem pisal, kako gremo s posadko čez določene postopke, takrat ko nimamo kaj početi na dolgi plovbi, pa so se eni smejali, češ da oni pa že ne bodo strašili posadke z raznimi potencialnimi situacijami in postopki. Osnovna šola postopkov v sili naj bo obvezna higiena vsakega skiperja, od uporabe jopičev, do tega, kje je gasilni aparat idr.
Npr. Priprava na neurje, MOB/človek v morju, požar na plovilu, vdor vode, oskrba ponesrečenca, klic v sili ... Same zanimive teme. Mogoče se kdo od posadke v prvem trenutku ob teh temah počuti nelagodno, kasneje lepi občutki dopustovanja na plovilu prevladajo :) Včasih smo temu rekli NNP. :idea:
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a 1stofficer » Sr Avg 28, 2024 11:39

Marchi napisal/-a:
JonTa napisal/-a:
Marchi napisal/-a:Kaj naredi downburst iz nič kaj orkanskega neba. Tudi s 500 tonsko jahto v primeru SY Bayesian. Potem dodaš odprta vrata in dvignjeno kobilico ...
https://youtu.be/C9d0X1SxfLg?t=176


Tole izgleda kot tornado/pijavica, je pa v tem videu spodaj orkanski downburst, ki vrže katmaran in položi 45m jadrnico na bok, katera se pa za razliko od baysesian postavi nazaj;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mofa0QNFi8

Super video, ki prikaže moč vetra. Vse se zgodi v trenutku in ja, jadrnice se postavijo nazaj, razen kadar je v igri "presenečenje in šlamparija". Vsem nam v opomnik, da ko gre zares, je treba izvesti vse postopke priprave na neurje in pošlihtat posadko. Vedno sem pisal, kako gremo s posadko čez določene postopke, takrat ko nimamo kaj početi na dolgi plovbi, pa so se eni smejali, češ da oni pa že ne bodo strašili posadke z raznimi potencialnimi situacijami in postopki. Osnovna šola postopkov v sili naj bo obvezna higiena vsakega skiperja, od uporabe jopičev, do tega, kje je gasilni aparat idr.
Npr. Priprava na neurje, MOB/človek v morju, požar na plovilu, vdor vode, oskrba ponesrečenca, klic v sili ... Same zanimive teme. Mogoče se kdo od posadke v prvem trenutku ob teh temah počuti nelagodno, kasneje lepi občutki dopustovanja na plovilu prevladajo :) Včasih smo temu rekli NNP. :idea:


Imam podobne izkušnje s posadko. Se mi zdi zelo pomembno, da prisotni na krovu vedo kako se odvzame gas, kako se odklene AP, kako se odvzame moč jadrom, kje so rešilni, kako se pokliče Distress z UHF, kako se uporabi rešilni šlauf, kje je gasilni aparat ipd. Ker ko zagusti nimaš čas za take zadeve, takrat samo še koordiniraš. Posadka pa se žal ponavadi ležerna od sonca in še česa bolj kot ne precej neresno, odklonilno odzove na take priprave. Najdeš pač pravi trenutek. Za člane familije sicer vsake tolk časa izvedem praktični test osnovnih veščin ;)
polanc
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a polanc » Sr Avg 28, 2024 12:59

Jaz imam to ful poštiman z mojo mamiko...rečem..no pejd mal za krmilno kolo, da občutiš kako se rajda..takoj pove ,da nej kr sam vozm ,k ona ni za to...in je že fertik pouka..
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a 1stofficer » Sr Avg 28, 2024 13:29

polanc napisal/-a:Jaz imam to ful poštiman z mojo mamiko...rečem..no pejd mal za krmilno kolo, da občutiš kako se rajda..takoj pove ,da nej kr sam vozm ,k ona ni za to...in je že fertik pouka..


Moji pa kar radi vozjo, vključno z 'mamiko'. Enkrat sem ji dal za vozit ko je kazal na pi******* z vremenom. Mi je uspel star dober trik, da sem jo zaposlil in ni paničarla, ampak ustrezno zaposlila misli in se je počutla pomembno :)
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a andrejv » Sr Avg 28, 2024 13:56

Nekdanji kapitan Bayesiana se je oglasil in povedal marsikaj zanimivega na temo. Ni hotel špekulirati o točnih vzrokih, je pa pojasnil marsikaj o balastu, kobilici, kotih nagiba in vratih ter oknih na barki:

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2024/08/27/former-bayesian-captain-offers-insight/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwY2xjawE72YtleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHU44ld-a0AU3322XmdAJRFhfpjPKPk1Ynsx9e01QdOxc5Z3M6ZF0hFFq4A_aem_ijS0PqgIvYpF-H8jIavOiQ

Having been bombarded with requests for information from journalists around the World for my input into the loss of S/Y Bayesian a week ago, I have finally decided to make some notes on the subject.

I have no desire to contribute to the wild speculation and claims that we have seen so far, or in any way suggest what really happened… only those on board at the time will know that, but I can shed some light on the characteristics of the vessel and some of the limitations that would likely be involved in this disaster.


Bayesian (ex Salute) was a 56m Perini Navi, part of a very successful series of hulls. She was the only one built as a sloop rig (single mast), with the tallest aluminum mast ever constructed. I’m going to discuss step-by-step what I hope are pertinent facts about the boat and her design and operation that are relevant to this event.

1. Mast
The mast and rig were certainly a major feature of the yacht and presented structural challenges in construction and ongoing life. As it pushed the boundaries of aluminum mast construction there were lessons that had to be learned over the years, but the result was a robust and well controlled rig in the end that performed well, within the limits of the design. The vessel is delivered with a set of sailplan recommendations that for a range of wind strengths will cause the vessel to sail within the structural limits of the rig and heeling limits of the hull.

2. Ballast
The height of Bayesian’s mast was of course considered in the overall design of the boat by Perini’s engineers. To this end she was equipped with an extra 30T of lead ballast in her keel box (we’ll come to that in a bit) compared to the 56m ketch rigged sister ships. This was to counter the extra mass, higher center of gravity and higher center of effort (from sailing forces) that the sloop rig created.

The main lead ballast was contained in a more or less rectangular box (keel box) attached below the canoe shaped part of the hull. The precise mass of this ballast I do not recall, but it’s probably around 200T or so. In the center part of this box there is the moveable keel, which weighed around 60T and extended almost 6m below the keel box when lowered. This arrangement means that the majority of the righting moment of the vessel comes from the main ballast… the moveable keel acting more as a centerboard to reduce sideslip under sail (leeway)…

3. Stability
All yachts such as Bayesian are delivered with a “Stability information Book”. This document is approved by the flag state of the boat and defines the loading and operation limits. It also contains information on the righting characteristics. The operational limitations defined in the stability book must be adhered too at all times which is the responsibility of the master.

One section of the Bayesian Stability book related to the use of the moveable keel… and defines when it must be lowered. In this vessel’s case it was required to be lowered when using sails, and/ or when over 60 nautical miles offshore (regardless of whether sailing or only using engines). At all other times, it could be in the raised position.

The stability book also contains information regarding righting angles and the watertight integrity of the hull. There are two important numbers here… Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS) and the Downflooding Angle.

The Angle of Vanishing Stability is the angle of heel at which the vessel righting moment reaches zero, meaning that the vessel will not return to upright. Again, I forget the actual numbers for this, but the figures would be around 90 degrees with the moveable keel lowered and 75 degrees with it raised.

The Downflooding Angle is much more important though in the scenario we are talking about. This is the angle of heel at which water will start to enter the vessel (usually through engine room or accommodation ventilation ducts)… once this starts the vessels is in serious trouble as stability is quickly reduced or lost due to the flooding.

The downflooding angle for Bayesian was around 40-45 degrees… much less than the AVS. So, unless the vent dampers are closed (which with HVAC systems and generator running they would NOT be as they need to be open for that), the vessel will start to flood rapidly if heeled more than the downflooding angle.

4. Hull Openings
Bayesian had only one shell door in the hull, on the port side aft. As this was very close to the waterline, it was rarely used (remembering the extra 30T of ballast mentioned earlier… this caused the water line to be 100mm higher than other 56m Perinis, hence much closer to the bottom of the shell opening meaning it could only be opened in flat calm conditions… 100% it was NOT open at night)

There are no opening windows or portholes, which are all made from laminated marine glass bonded to the hull & superstructure.

Other deck hatch / superstructure openings that breach the watertight integrity on Bayesian are on or close to the centerline of the vessel. For these to be taking water if open, the vessel would have to be heeled way beyond the Downflooding Angle mentioned earlier, and hence already flooding via ducting/vents.

Only one opening was located far from the centerline, and could be vulnerable to downflooding at lower angles of heel… this is the deck access to the lazarette area towards the stern. However, as it is located on the port (left) side of the aft deck, it would be unlikely to be an initial factor in this scenario as we know that Bayesian was knocked down to starboard, and as such this hatch, even if opened as crew were on deck etc, would have been one of the later parts to submerge.

5. Summary
The vessel Bayesian was sound and seaworthy by design, and to my knowledge well maintained as such. However, heeling her to more than around 45 degrees while in normal operational state could result in flooding and subsequent loss if the flooding could not be controlled.

The weather conditions that could have created these extreme circumstances can indeed occur with very little warning and being so localized are difficult to prepare for, leaving a very short time for the crew to react.

How the vessel came to be taken outside her operation limits is what the investigators will need to determine, which I’m sure they will.
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Marchi
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a Marchi » Sr Avg 28, 2024 14:50

Če prav razumem, je pričakovani kot, ko se jadrnica pobere nazaj:
- 90° (Angle of Vanishing Stability) ob spuščeni kobilici (200+60t balasta)
- 75° (Angle of Vanishing Stability) ob dvignjeni kobilici (200t balasta)
- 45° (Downflooding Angle) ob mirnodobnem delovanju, ko laufajo generatorji ipd. in so temu namenjene odprtine odprte, in čez 45° začne vdirati voda, kar podre uravnoteženost.
JonTa
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Re: Pomorske nezgode na Jadranu

OdgovorNapisal/-a JonTa » Sr Avg 28, 2024 15:17

Marchi napisal/-a:Če prav razumem, je pričakovani kot, ko se jadrnica pobere nazaj:
- 90° (Angle of Vanishing Stability) ob spuščeni kobilici (200+60t balasta)
- 75° (Angle of Vanishing Stability) ob dvignjeni kobilici (200t balasta)
- 45° (Downflooding Angle) ob mirnodobnem delovanju, ko laufajo generatorji ipd. in so temu namenjene odprtine odprte, in čez 45° začne vdirati voda, kar podre uravnoteženost.


Meni je ta "downflooding" pri 45° čista konstrukcijska napaka, vse odprtine za zajem in odvod zraka bi morale biti čim bolj na sredini, ne pa na zunanji strani trupa, če pa že s kakšni varnostnimi rešitvami/senzorji da se avtomastko zaprejo pri vdoru vode. Na tem video-u je dobro pokazano kje so vent-reže za strojnico; https://youtu.be/mGULtQjJrvQ?t=549

Tale video pa kot zanimivost, ko so delali refit, za občutek kakšna zver od jamborja je bila to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqAS-eCM9B0

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